I have friends who are recovering alcoholics who have been diagnosed as being bi-polar. (BTW, I agree with her.). So Id say that part worked. We dont know. I dont disagree with you that a drunkard also needs medical assistance to give up his addiction, and very likely would also benefit from mental health assistance to deal with other underlying issues he may have. I think they have missed the entire point of Rom. My trying to save him from the pain of his choices only made things worse. That allows time for the body to get used to being *not anxious* or experiencing regular anxiety like being late for an appointment. Good for him. His wet brain led to do something stupid and put him in jail for a year, including 90 days in San Quentin for evaluation. If I even half told you what it did to my younger sister, people would get pitchforks. They do recommend tough love including setting boundaries as you also said you support. And wisdom to know the difference. lots of contempt in them there words .. what is the story behind them? AA in particular is seriously overrated, and even the courts know it. @ Velour: If nothing else get a dose of reality. Im not incorrect. That is making it something comprehensive rather than case specific. My trying to save him from the pain of his choices only made things worse. What RC-Jr did was jump from one denomination to another so he could continue in his own ministry, and the denominations do not respect one anothers defrocking (although they usually respect one anothers ordinations). If that is the case, the person who says, Aw, come on. Were all (finally) in agreement that the man needs treatment. Perhaps you are being blinded by the guys alcohol addiction. Have you not caught up? Acting out is not a good substitute for the more direct communication, but sometimes the real story is so painful that there are no words. It works some of the time. That is a pretty remarkable journey that you have had and I applaud you. Dee and Deb have written how many horrific cases here of people who have been subjected to Biblical Church Discipline? She needs help for being married to an alcoholic: http://www.al-anon.alateen.org/ This includes the situation mentioned in this blog about a clergy family with substances abuse issues, to the point of endangering others. So sorry my lived experience doesnt bolster her view points and philosophy. they simply enjoy all kinds of beverages because they pleasurable. It didnt sober him up but its good for maintenance of the recovery. If you think that is hateful, your gripe is with the Bible not with me. Im not seeing how sitting in a church building once a week listening to sermons treats things such as depression or alcoholism. I hope they do. There are some people who can con their way into whatever position they want, even in a denomination that has a superstructure. 30 years ago, a minister in my then-denomination, one with a national/regional/local superstructure, had an affair with a counslee, and embezzled some money. lots of contempt in them there words .. what is the story behind them? ++++++++++++++. Go back and re-read what I said. If that's the case, then Albert Mohler is one of the most radical Social Justice Warriors in evangelicalism, doing a 180-degree turn from his 2014 debate with Jim Wallis on the subject. The parents would always come home much later than they had said. We had a great time together. A passionate photographer, birder, genealogist, historian and occasional poet, John was 85. I can never forget the time they called me back to try to convince some drunk driver to let us get some x-rays of him and they told me that the others that he hurled his large truck into were in the morgue-man, woman and two children. That his (second) wife and children could benefit from help as well for the family members of problem drinkers so that they can learn to take care of themselves around him. Wev had varied opinions on how to handle addictions in the church on this thread. Sounds like something an enabling father would say, doesnt it? Velour wrote: This thread started about S Jnr & comments were specific to his situation alone. I am not the one who is talking about diagnosis or treatment variables. And yes, we must continue to pray. The solution to spiritual abuse isnt to cast aside what the Bible commands the church to do, its to obey the Bible. My mother was codependent in part because her father used to abuser her and her mother, and she raised me to have codependent behaviors, which left me vulnerable to being exploited or abused by other people. You have no clue what I know about substance abuse, 12-step programs, etc, based on my comments here. Will this 501(c)3 religious professional be held accountable for his use of improper judgement and child care endangerment? Were not just talking about an alcoholic (RC Sproul Jr). Occasionally, there is the lone alcoholic who maintains stability but I dont believe that is the norm. Not sure I would quite go this far (God is the only that can really say this) but RC2 certainly has denied Gods power that Paul wrote about in II Tim 3:5. Remember defrocking? That would include RC Junior and Tchividjian. Some might call it being accountable. 1 Corinthians 5:11-13. View pages/Spiritual-Sounding-Board/266400143480456?ref=hls profile on Facebook, View @defendthesheeps profile on Twitter, View soundingboards profile on Pinterest, BGBC Lawsuit Archive (Julie Annes lawsuit), 00 Guide to Navigating the BGBC Defamation Lawsuit Archive, 01 Court Dates and Documents, and Analysis of Allegations, 02A Narrative Account and Analysis: The Lawsuit, 02B Narrative Account and Analysis: Sidebar Issues, 03 BGBC Defamation Lawsuit Events Timeline, 04 BGBC Defamation Lawsuit Media/Blog Response Timeline, 05 Analysis/Commentary Pieces Legal, Historical, Media, Other, 06 Impact of the Case and Significance for the Future, Quotes from Readers I Dont Want to Forget, Glossary of Manipulative Rhetorical Gambits and Code Words, R.C. 2. Most of us are in agreement that Sproul Jr. needs treatment for alcoholism. I just figured that H.A. He made need to be hospitalized and treated by those who are not overly impressed with the Sproul name. I dont recall ever treating Velour in that fashion. I am glad to hear about your sons recovery. So behind the times. No prison time. Many in the SBC hold to substitutionary atonement but not PENAL substitutionary atonement. No prison time. Unfortunately, drunk or sober, he espouses patriarchy, even to the point of rumored wife-spanking. I think they probably know what works and what doesnt. But we do know what RC Sproul teaches, and it is very damaging. I dont know. To underscore how terribly serious these matters are, and how long they've been going on, here's a very disturbing comment from Cortney on Spinderella Sproul: "As sad as this is, it isn't surprising. As I understand it RC Sproul Jr. is a Calvinist just like his father and thus hold to TULIP., According to the P in TULIP they believe in the perseverance of the saints. This basically states that if one is a true believer or as they put it selected by God for salvation or in their term unconditional election this person will not backslide etc. Apparently he was genetically hardwired for alcoholism; from his first taste of alcohol, he immediately wanted more and more and more. I agree that he should lose his job for his abuses and that he should not be enabled. And his family needs it as well for living with a problem drinker. I have explained myself and you have explained yourself. Jr. sounds like hes running a cult, not a Presbyterian Church. In keeping with that opinion I do not feel that it is my responsibility to try to make anybody agree with me on this issue, nor my responsibility to agree with anybody else not even agree with the majority opinion should there be such a thing. I had to go things alone, with the depression and the death of a family member. In contrast, your experience has left you with a definition for the word that involves quashing any kind of disagreement with leadership, and shunning, and cutting off relationships altogether. Every case is different. It is also possible to have a guilty conscience when no objective guilt is present. As Ive already said on Spinderella Sproul, RC Sproul Jr is unregenerate. throw him out of the house. I addressed the comment she did make because that is NOT how alcoholism/substance abuse is supposed to be treated. If one has not read the Adult children of alcoholic books, dont consider yourself educated on this matter. There are people who are alcoholics and yes, the first drink (beer, etc.) (So sorry for your terrible experience Dee). RC seems to be a bit dodgy here. developing an alchoholic psychosis), then they have to have help to be restored enough to MAKE a decision about if they want to go forward in a good direction or not. So someone asked how can sitting in the pews help a recovering alcoholic. Some of us have been on the receiving end of RCs lies and manipulations, so its not just speculation. I also think that churches, like employers, play a role in getting people with addictions into treatment. Based on his history I am sure he did it numerous times without getting caught. But its a long story, and might strip away my teens anonymity, so I wont go into further detail. That being said, Im also learning a few things here. His Mom, Vida, was no prize either. Alcohol is generally an excuse. Youll say in one breath that the dude should be fired or held accountable, but then you get angry with people who say he should be held accountable or be fired (in public). To say that this is the reason he abuses alcohol is obfuscating the real fact that not everyone who goes through tragedy becomes an alcoholic. and @ refugee: If you are a subordinate leader (and maybe not always in lock-step with the top dog), you will be more likely to be asked or forced to step down. I would agree the church in the dark ages had a very bad reputation when it came to church discipline, Spanish Inquisition and all that. It lets him off the hook for all the spiritual abuse and leaves him free to weasel his way back into ministry once the dust settles. As I said above, in this day and age, people can use the internet to Google for names and addresses of treatment centers or psychologists. I enjoy reading here! If I have said something that has caused you harm, please let me know. I dont think Okrapod specialized in treatment of alcoholics and substance abusers. I dont know velour personally but she appears to be as much a person of faith as anyone who posts here. The lady in the story died of alcoholism. And if it is not, then they may very well continue to self-medicate in self-destructive ways, yes. RC Sproul Jr has destroyed the lives of quite a few people with alcohol, especially young men who are insecure in their manhood. So youre uncomfortable with those truths. Our President Donald Trump doesnt drink at all. Sproul 2 should be kicked out of his church and that he wasnt really a believer, etc. 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.. The thought makes my stomach turn, in part because it is tied to membership covenants. Who is even real and genuine in the body of Christ? Pennsylvania. So I was only saying what the Bible says. God have mercy. . When I am around a person/s who are alcoholics, I will not drink alcohol because I dont want to be a cause for them to be tempted to drink. No excuses. It was obvious that the other poster had replied out of their own painful experience. (caps and emphasis intended). or a drunkard, [substance abuse] There is no cause and effect, no correlation at all, between RC Jrs family deaths and his heavy drinking. Its all part of that raising the bottom thing you claim to support. After burning his bridges there he left and joined the CPC, another denom he had nothing to do with starting. The EMTs told me later that they were 100% certain that I would be DOA at the hospital. Those are very informative. Maybe Barbara would support all that stuff is it fair to base your arguments on silence? You are strong! If not again, according to Christ Jesus, Himself it would be appropriate for the local body to withdraw fellowship. Way too many comments here have nothing at all to do with the subject, which is RC Sproul Jr, a wolf in sheeps clothing who has destroyed the lives and faiths of dozens of people and families. My mother couldnt believe I was home so early, lol. Please be assured that I didnt use the phrase Hurting people hurt people combatively, but I wont deny it may have been unwise. We now approach these matters much more like a spiritual team and have developed richer relationships not dependent on being part of the organization. You started talking about me the same way and I was offended by your words. He needs to be in in-patient treatment for alcoholism (and whatever else troubles him that the medical professionals figure out). . I erred in previously responding with, As far as anyone can tell it hasnt been reported on. Spinderella Sproul has reported on this but the specifics on RC Jrs probation terms seemingly been difficult to come up with. First I do not agree that it is the churchs responsibility to have any medical opinions about people, or try to channel them into any treatment options, or to espouse any particular medical opinions as the official opinions or procedures of the church. His scandals go back approximately two decades. She's given me permission to share her letter and you can use it as you deem fit. (aside from neurological difficulties that may come after an extended time period). Of course not. I know this. But we did not ban her. Robert Charles Sproul was born February 13, 1939, in Pittsburgh, the son of Robert Cecil and Mayre Ann (n e Yardis) Sproul. But hed lost his wife to cancer is the same excuse his supporters used to defend him over his Ashley Madison scandal. And Velour, theres no need to go over the issues again. She just didnt mention it, and she didnt need to. It is a complex topic and there are no easy answers, as weve seen on this thread. RC talks about drinking, suggests that if HE has a problem HE should abstain, but leaves the impression that we should mind our own business about others drinking and abuse. I dont see the comparison as connecting to RC Sproul Jr., except for the coincidence that they are both alcoholics. And it helped her on her road to sobriety. I was diagnosed with clinical depression at a young age. Sproul was born in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, as the second child of Robert Cecil Sproul, an accountant and a veteran of World War II and his wife, Mayre Ann Sproul (ne Yardis). And I know how the victims of such unjust expulsions often feel, because we hear from them often at A Cry For Justice. Much of the information posted is inaccurate both in substance and interpretation. I had surgery Monday. im sorry this is happening, dee. Based on everything Im reading about this guy in this thread and the OP by various people, (that he joined an adultery site, hes been a bully for years, is authoritarian, he has his church ostracize ex members, etc) are you saying that this bad fruit should be ignored, all because the guy is also an alcoholic? I will not go to a church that has such Dark Ages practices. Now to deal with your concerns in a more general sense (and this is where it seems we differ), in my experience most churches arent in any way qualified to deal with alkies. It is insane that these false teachers have any followers too. When Barbara starts off her comment with Ha Ha and trots out Scripture verses, and never makes mention of treatment for alcoholism and for the family members, than she will get push back from me too. Your comment was a nice surprise, Claire. Velour said: Daisy, He had a disease. I said to her When Abby was diagnosed with her brain tumor, what I wouldnt have given for such a disease. We have gone several rounds. I have worked in an alcoholic facility and have lost loved ones to alcoholism. The hotter it is, the faster those icy cold spirits will flow. The Bible says that those who profess to be brothers in Christ and are drunkards need to be expelled from the church. . RC Jr also refused to leave. We part company, however, over the theological issue of how to deal with people who are struggling with addictions in the church. Velour said: is pretty controlling. In fact, they need to drink quantities, just to feel normal and function normally. But then (if Im remembering right), at some point in the progression of the disease, they cross some boundary and reach the point where they cant hold their liquor anymore. As for Presbyterian polity, RC1 is ordained in the PCA, but the last I heard, he was the pastor of an *independent* Presbyterian church. A sort of similar tale in our county. This is inexcusable and seriously hurts your credibility. Once again, I am proven wrong. I have been nice to H.A. As the saying goes, for every rat you catch you know that there a lot more that you dont catch. I cant imagine going through what you did at such a young age. Yes, job loss should happen for Sproul 2, but with the church directing him and supporting him into treatment. You cannot change your past, nor can I, nor can Rcjr. This wasnt a little bit buzzed. youll follow his example. Neither one ever gave up the booze though, although with RC Srs poor health (multiple strokes) he may be drinking less than he did. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Truth, and He will lead us to apply those scriptures with grace and truth. Not that it has anything to do with alcoholism, but many adult children of my acquaintance will never step foot in a church again because of the toxic teachings of RC Sproul Sr., RC Sproul Jr, and like-minded men who espouse the same teachings. Theres still no excuse to be an abuser of others. @ Velour: Or for his wife? This guy has way more going on than alcoholism. The story that Friend posted about the love, care, concern, and inclusion that their church and clergy gave to a woman alcoholic member is a testament to the Gospel at work. God in his infinite mercy intervened and all three children in this home were saved. Velour said: Actually, yes, several people have never mentioned treatment. Maybe she was advocating for it to be done in public (? The older I get and remain in a faith crisis of my own, I definitely think being church-y, and thinking about what God thinks, and caring about what God may think about this or that, adds a whole other level of unnecessary complication on to life. You probably know as well as anyone they dont make good candidates for alcohol rehab, but family systems that enable an alcoholic make it all but impossible. Here is one wonderful article by a Christian woman in recovery, who waged her battle with alcoholism in secret and she explains what she thinks the church can do. For another example allong another line, what about people who make a career out of being hurt, like the current epidemic of snowflakes. Youll say in one breath that the dude should be fired or held accountable, but then you get angry with people who say he should be held accountable or be fired (in public). In contrast, your experience has left you with a definition for the word that involves quashing any kind of disagreement with leadership, and shunning, and cutting off relationships altogether. They did however report that his drivers license had been reinstated with no restrictions, and it was from there that I answered your question about that. You need to start your own blog really as you now look to me as though youre acting as gatekeeper/moderator here. It turned out to be rum. People dont have to reinvent the wheel to find help. It had such a devastating impact on my husband that he doesn't drink alcohol. If you had ever lost a loved one to alcoholism ( Ive lost two ) you would know that entire families can spend every waking minute and all of their financial resources to try to help and get help for their alcoholic family member resulting in failure after devastating failure . It probably depends on the individual. (AKA He stops taking showers, the leak stops, think Ill have another Drink) Took a water-collapsed ceiling, him harassing me over the phone, and a resulting court fight (with him suing me for as much as he could and yelling at the judge in the courtroom) before things settled down. (I actually read something recently that was talking about dry January or something to reset your tolerance and although Im sure that wouldnt be promoted by some, it seems like not a bad idea as far as making sure you dont actually have a problem.) One may be a choice, the other, an illness. @ okrapod: He made need to be hospitalized and treated by those who are not overly impressed with the Sproul name. And its important to try. Sproul is with the Lord now. Its a multi-pronged approach to dealing with an alcoholic. I am sorry to complain, thankyou for sharing about your Dad, Brian. They are likely growing up in a home with an alcoholic and will develop serious problems as the years go on. an invitation to share his/her story. I think they probably know what works and what doesnt. Im talking about the loss of time with real friends who are still my friends. The Bible does not teach that all sins are equal in severity. (I have an NHS-supplied test kit, so this is simple enough.) I guess I put my question badly, for I wasnt asking if your feelings would change based on the identity of the person, but rather the nature of what that person lives and teaches and imposes on others. 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